(upbeat music)
-: Welcome to the "Accessible Learning Experience"
where we help you turn learning barriers
into learning opportunities.
On this episode, we welcome Zebadiah Hall to the podcast.
Zebadiah is Vice President of Diversity, Equity
and Inclusion at the University of Wyoming and he has
a long career in the field of disability services
in higher education.
Most recently he was director of Student Disability Services
at Cornell University from 2019 to 2022,
and prior to that he was the director of the Access
and Accommodations Resource Center at Valparaiso University
in Indiana for five years.
Our conversation focuses on how we can celebrate
both the intersectionality and variability learners bring
into every learning environment and through the application
of Universal Design for Learning,
create those communities of belonging for all learners.
Here then is my conversation with Zebadiah.
Hi Zebadiah.
Let's start out by getting to know you
and your accessibility story and your why.
What motivated you to pursue this work that you do
and what experiences have shaped your perspective
on that work?
-: Happy to be in space and time with you.
I'm Zebadiah Hall, identify as a black man,
use he/him pronouns.
Really salient question about why I do the work
or how'd I get into the work.
Ever since I was born,
my father's been on disability and so doing disability work
and working with disabled people has always been
a part of my life,
before I even realized it was part of my life.
Where it really became noticeable to me is when I was in
middle school and my father would drop me off for practice
or pick me up for practice and they were kind of joking,
tease me like, why's your dad always picking you up?
Where's your mom at and I was like, my mom's at work
and it wasn't until that timeframe,
until I got into middle school to truly understand
that my father was disabled and was on disability
and my mother was a breadwinner,
which during that time with most of my friends,
the father was a breadwinner and the mother was the one
picking up my peers and dropping them off
and so that's where it really came from
and then I understanding the dynamic of me
being a black male and what oppression looks like
that makes me do the work that I do
and continuously do the work.
But there's a direct connection with the disability
'cause my father was on disability
and then some of my uncles and aunties had disabilities
and some of my other cousins and peer groups
also have disabilities
and that's where it actually came from
and that's where it stems from.
-: Thank you so much for sharing that
and being vulnerable with us and and sharing that part
of your experience that I didn't know about
and as you just mentioned, you have a history,
not only a personal experience with disability
but also in your many professional roles.
You've held leadership roles in disability services
and I know that many of our audience members
who listen to this podcast have similar roles
in disability services.
So in that role you've brought UDL into the work
of the disability services office
and I don't know about you,
but I've found that often people don't make
those connections between disability services
and accommodations and Universal Design for Learning
and I know that that's something that's near
and dear to your heart is making those connections
between those concepts.
So can you share some insight with our audience
about how you think about those things
and how you bring them together in your work?
-: Definitely and really, really important question,
I'll start not talking about that and loop back around,
but one of the things I played college basketball,
my coach used to always say, "Point the thumb,
"not the finger
"'cause the thumb points at you
"and the fingers points at other people."
And so one of the things when I think about that concept
and pointing at me and when I think about
disability support services and disability resource offices,
we're always going to faculty and saying,
"You need to use UDL."
We're going to our project managers and facilities
and saying, "You need to use UD."
We're never looking at ourselves
and the barriers that we pose for students to utilize
our services,
and that's one of the reasons I kind of say point the thumb
and not the finger because we need to point at ourselves.
We need to engage with ourselves and our policies,
our procedures in our disability offices,
and what are we doing to create barriers for students
not to access our services.
A great example of that would be some places you have
to have a meeting with somebody in a disability office
to receive accommodations.
Well, we're in a day and age where all students
don't want to meet with all people
and sometimes our identities themselves
are barriers to other people utilizing our services
and so how do we actually look internally at our process,
policies and procedures and then try to apply UDL
to those principles?
And how do you do it in such a way that you are reaching
the marginalized identities but you're also doing it
in a way that is taking care of the staff
that's actually determining accommodation
'cause that work is really hard too
and so some of the things that we did was we took our names
off accommodation letters and so then people
didn't have to only work with Zebadiah
that was on my caseload.
So I removed caseloads from the counselors
that would determine the accommodations.
And I say counselor because at that point in time
they were called counselors.
Another thing we did was we call
a disability access consultant,
which is another part of UDL because how do you engage
in different ways and how do you express yourselves
in different ways?
Expressing myself as a disability counselor
is very different in expressing myself
as a disability access consultant.
So we did title changes,
we looked at job description and then we looked at
our processes and procedures and what we tried to do was say
where within our processes,
where within our procedures are there barriers
for our students to receive our services?
Case in point, medical documentation sometimes is a barrier
and so how do we look at medical documentation?
How do we put that through the lens of UDL so we can engage
with our students that have medical documentation,
engage with our students who do not have
medical documentation.
Another thing was looking at our meetings.
If we meet with every student,
we have a load of 6,000 students that we work with,
it was gonna be impossible to meet with all those students
in the first couple weeks.
Using Universal Design for Learning,
we gave students different ways to engage with our office.
So now we're gonna only meet with the students that need
to meet with us and the students who do not need
to meet with us will still receive their services
and so really taking a critical lens
and looking at yourself, policy, procedures
and processes and then saying where are the barriers at.
Now that we know that this is the barrier,
how do we use UDL to make sure that our students, staff,
and faculty can engage with our services?
-: Well thank you so much, Zebadiah
for all that helpful information
and I love how you're really braiding.
I like that idea of braiding these concepts together
of Universal Design for Learning, access,
accessibility and equity
and I know that you've had a transition recently
in that you're now the first full-time Vice President
of Diversity and Inclusion at the University of Wyoming.
First of all, congratulations on that, that's amazing.
What experiences really prepared you for that role?
And you've already spoken about that a little bit,
about your personal experiences,
but what has surprised you the most about the work
that you're doing now
and then explain to our audience more what your role entails
at the University of Wyoming.
-: Yeah, really, really great question.
I think one of the things that's really important
is understanding that universal design and UDL,
our frameworks of equity, our frameworks of inclusion,
our frameworks of justice,
being in the role currently as a vice president
and thank you for the kind words as well,
but being in this role as a vice president gives me a chance
to elevate the work that I was currently doing
and do it on a larger scale.
One of the things that we used to talk about a lot
when in disability services is intersectionality
and no person is one identity
and so when we're trying to work on this
and now I'm doing it at the vice president level,
I get to take that same intersectionality principle.
I get to take that same UD and UDL principles conversation
at a larger scale that gives me the ability to work on
things and help others out.
For example, when we think about individuals
that have to do certain things,
there might be times where they have to do field work.
And in that field work you need certain equipments,
where our lower social economic students
can't afford that equipment
and so we have less students going into those majors.
As the VP of DEI, maybe I can get funding in that space,
but the intersectionality of lower social economics,
individuals being in the STEM field,
that intersectionality piece there,
now I can get funding to support lower social economics.
So still using the UDL,
still using the universal design for universal design,
still looking at intersectionality to do this work
at a really high level,
it excites me to be able to do this work now
because if you look at our historical context,
say if you go back to the 1880s,
we classified a lot of individuals as disabled.
The reason we did that is because we thought disability
was a bad word, we thought disabled people were bad.
Disabled people aren't bad and disability isn't bad.
But if English was a second language,
sometimes it's important for our European brothers
and sisters to know that if English was a second language,
they also called you disabled 'cause they gave you tests
in different languages, right?
If you were poor, you're considered disabled.
If your enslaved or ran away from the plantation,
they gave you a mental health diagnosis
and called you disabled.
And so the reason it's important for people to understand
that historical context is because we will allow people
to utilize those same principles to our marginalized
and minoritized identities and those individuals
will not have access to participate.
And sometimes we don't bring disability
in the overall conversation of diversity, equity, inclusion,
and disability give us a lens through intersectionality
to talk about some of these things.
And I try to utilize that in the work that we do now.
But one of the main things that I think is important
is how do I use Universal Design for Learning?
DEI right now is really polarized,
and so how do I express what DEI means in different ways,
different nuances and all of those different things
from a UDL principle.
So then we can have everyone engaging with DEI
versus thinking it's just these polarized terminology
and that's another way of using UDL is how do I take UDL
and break down what diversity equity inclusion means
so that everybody have access to participate
in the way that they want to participate in DEI.
-: So basically we have to model diversity, equity,
and inclusion in our diversity, equity, and inclusion work,
don't we and I also appreciate what you had to say about,
you know, the proud movement behind disability
in our country that doesn't always get recognized
and that that word is not bad, right?
There's a hashtag on Twitter, say the word,
where people are encouraging others to, you know,
use the word disability because there's nothing
to be ashamed about it.
There's a proud history of people that have sought
our civil rights and so it's something to build on.
So speaking of that sort of movement,
and we talked about modeling DEI,
but also modeling accessibility, right,
and I found that often these movements or these efforts
are disconnected from each other.
When we do DEI work,
seems to be focusing one type of office.
When we do accessibility work seems to be focused in another
type of office.
How do we bring those things together?
What are some tips that you would share for basically
engaging systemic work around those two concepts?
Where would they start?
-: One of the things I'll start with and go back to
a little bit is just one reason of elevating
the word disability and disabled.
If we had a black student organization,
we would never tell them to take black out.
If we had a woman's organization,
we would never tell them to take women out, right?
And going to that place of saying the word disability
is not bad and we need to elevate the word itself
and so once again, that's using UDL,
a little bit of giving different examples
for people to engage in the work.
If you can sometimes give them a metaphor
or something in a different frame,
then maybe they can sometimes understand it a little bit.
As we think about tips for individuals
to make the connectivity, understanding the history,
some of the historical things that I went over I think
is really important for people to know.
I think also understanding the mother of disability
just passed the great legend, Judy Human,
and understand when she was leading the sit-in
and doing those kind of things,
it was the Black Panther Party
that was actually feeding individuals.
It was the LGBTQ community actually bathing them
and washing their hair and things like that
and so I think the intersectionality,
I think the working together has already always happened.
When you think about the terminology
disability justice itself,
that came from individuals being in
the queer community space, actually talking about this
and that's where disability justice came from.
And so there are gonna be times where the disabled community
do not feel like they belong in spaces,
they belong in all spaces
and so all spaces should be equipped to receive
our disabled community in the intersectionality
of what that actually looks like.
And that's one of the ways in which I think
we can work together,
I think it's important for the people
in the disability office to go meet with the people
in multicultural affairs.
I think the people in multicultural affairs
should be meeting with the people in the disability office
and understand that synergy.
I think when we begin to think like that,
we actually bring UDL in a different way.
And I'll give you an example and then I'll give you
a personal example of how UDL works as well.
But when COVID happened,
there was a lot of people attacking our Asian community.
What I did as the Director of Disability Support Services,
I used New York Human Rights Law,
which allowed for temporary accommodations and we did
COVID accommodations out of the disability office.
So when they received this disability accommodation letter,
they didn't know that the student had Covid or not
because they were coming through my office.
The intersectionality of the Asian community
receiving hate due to COVID says how do I use UDL
to protect these students and give them the services
that they need?
Not just the Asian student,
any student that actually had it,
but what it did was it protected the Asian community
so it didn't look like only Asians were dealing with this.
Then it protected the people that came down with Covid.
So then the community didn't ostracize those individuals
and that's a way of looking at the intersectionality, right?
Of the Asian community and the hate that they were receiving
or the individuals that came down with COVID
and their intersectionality of how the community
was gonna treat them
and so then we used our disability office
to actually accommodate those individuals
when they need to stay in a room in isolation
and quarantine.
We had different folks working with us on that,
but we were actually making the accommodation decisions,
how long they were gonna be out of the class,
help support when they're going into isolation
and quarantine.
And so if you look at the actual problem at hand,
look at intersectionality and then say
how can I apply UDL to this?
Well then it's sent a different message about Covid
because now disability support services doing it
from a centralized standpoint,
it protected certain communities and things like that.
That's one way to think about how that actually works
is looking at your services that you provide,
working with other entities and seeing how that work.
Another example of that was monkeypox.
When Monkeypox kind of hit the surface,
they were saying they had to do with
just the LGBT community.
It was like it was AIDS all over again.
What we did was we worked with the Rainbow Resource Center,
where most of the LGBT community was going
and operating with and we helped them understand
the services that we could give and that was a message
for them to give to their community.
And so that was another way of using UDL.
Sometimes when you are using UDL,
you're not the messenger because it needs to be expressed
in different ways and that's how you use somebody
within those identities,
within those communities from a UDL standpoint
to make that actual connection.
On a personal note, there are times where I will post things
on Facebook and when I'm posting pictures on Facebook,
I'll kind of write like, oh, it's Leslie, Leslie's my wife.
I'll say, oh, it's Leslie and I taking a picture.
Or Leslie looks gorgeous in her orange dress at such
and such place.
The reason I'm doing that,
because some of my friends are blind,
I have some people that says, oh my God,
he really loves Leslie 'cause he document every picture
and everything that's going on, right?
So from a UDL standpoint,
I'm doing it because I love Leslie to death
and from a UDL standpoint,
I'm doing it because I want others to have access
to participate
and that's a way in which we can help make these connections
for people that they don't realize has actually happened.
It keeps my wife happy, it keeps my friends engaged.
You can't beat that, right?
But that's another way of just personally applying
some of these accessibility principles in such a way.
When I expressed that, some people say, okay,
now I know what's going on In that photo,
when I expressed it, other people said, oh,
he really loves his wife, right?
And he's really romantic, right?
So that's how, no matter what you do,
people are gonna take it in different ways
and that's the different ways in which
we can express ourselves sometimes through UDL.
-: Well if nothing else, I've picked up a tip
for keeping harmony at home.
When I share my photos on Facebook now,
I'm gonna make sure to include great descriptions
of my significant other, so thank you for that tip,
that personal connection.
And I wanna go back a little bit.
Again, we're gonna practice UDL, right,
as part of this podcast
and we've used the term intersectionality a number of times,
but there may be people in our audience for whom that term
is new, so we wanna make sure that we define that term.
And you know, I saw a quote somewhere, I think it's,
and you may correct me here, but the quote was,
"We don't live single issue lives."
And I think you've summarized that,
like you can be African American,
have a disability and be going through Covid
and all of those things intersect
and mean that you require a specific set of services.
So can you explain from your perspective,
how would you define intersectionality?
-: Definitely, really great question on intersectionality.
Kimberly Crenshaw actually came up with intersectionality.
And so if people wanna go look up Kimberly Crenshaw,
they can do that.
Kimberly Crenshaw's actually work in the legal field
and she's also faculty as well.
What Kimberly Crenshaw was saying,
what's happening to me is not happening to me
because I'm black
because black men are not experiencing this.
What's happening to me,
this is not happening to me because I'm a woman
because white women are not experiencing this.
It's happening to me because I'm black and woman
and the intersectionality of those two identities is the way
in which I'm being treated in this environment.
Intersectionality doesn't always mean
that you're being treated negative.
Sometimes that can give you a privilege,
based off the intersectionality that's happening
within that space.
But what it is is looking at more than one identity.
None of us is one identity.
Looking at our intersecting identities
and understanding how that intersecting identities shows up
into these spaces.
One of the things that I think is important
when we just look at the landscape.
As a male, that give me access to things that sometimes
our women do not have access to.
As a black male, that doesn't mean I still have
that same access as my white male counterparts.
And that's why the intersectionality is really important.
When I think about intersectionality
and we're thinking about it in a disability sense,
understanding that women are not treated the same way as men
in engineering and if we're not looking at
the intersectionality of that,
we might never be able to accommodate that woman
and what I mean by that,
sometimes we might just put accommodations in place,
not recognize that it's the environment itself
that are posing the barriers or aggravating that condition.
And that's why it's so important to understand
what's going on.
Our men are not treated the same way as women in nursing
because that tend to be more of a field
dominated by women, right?
When you think about the stem
and you think about these other things,
if you're not thinking about the environment
and the intersectionality of the people
within those environments,
then you might never truly be able to understand
what the lived experience are of those individuals.
So then it's harder to put resources and stuff in place.
If I wanted to only look at UDL
and I didn't look at intersectionality,
I would put a lot of things in place
that didn't work for individuals.
And that's what's really important.
I think when we are, the education system in general,
we try to teach to the average student,
there's no such thing as an average student
and that's what's really hard.
I could be average height,
but my arms aren't average length.
And if we talk to the edges,
we will then teach to everybody
and then the individuals in between,
and I think that's something that intersectionality gives us
the ability to think about is how do we teach to the margins
and not teach to the average
'cause nobody's actually average.
-: Right, right, it's a myth that there's an average
and we need to keep that into consideration
when we design environments because as you said,
the barriers are in the environment
and I think you bring up a great point.
We often think of just the physical barriers
in the environment, but there are things
like stereotype threat.
If you're not familiar with that term,
I encourage you to check out the work of Claude Steele
and the book "Whistling Vivaldi."
It's a great book that addresses that issue
of stereotype threat.
So you mentioned, you know,
if you're a man in a field that typically men don't go into,
like nursing or if you're a woman going into field
like engineering,
there's not just the physical barriers in the environment
or the digital barriers
when materials are not designed with accessibility in mind.
But there's also the feelings of belonging
that you may experience or not experience
as a result of stereotype threat.
So what are some ways in which we can make our environments
places of belonging.
From your long history of working in this space,
how do we create those places of belonging?
-: I think once again, I know we keep talking about UDL,
but I think UDL and looking at our policies and procedures
and applying UDL to our policies and procedures.
I think sometimes our policies and procedures are written
in such a way that they're very,
from a scarcity fear-based model
and so we're gonna write it in such a way that we know
nobody can skim the system,
which we know that that's not true
and what we do is actually hurt the marginalized identities
when we do those kind of things.
for example, when our people in disability resource centers
saying we're not gonna let people gain the system,
we're gonna require medical documentation.
You're saying what we're gonna do is make this process
for affluent people that can afford it, right?
Because you could still go pay for the medical documentation
and have no diagnosis or have no medical conditions
or have no disabilities at all.
And so how do we be mindful of the way
in which we're writing a policies and procedures?
Also, it's this great saying that says nothing for us
without us.
How do we make sure we go to our staff, students,
and faculty and ask what they need before we start to design
and create the things that we're thinking about
because we need input from the people themselves.
And most of the time there is top down decision making.
When we make decisions at the top and I say we,
because I sit as a vice president,
I'm not boots on the ground.
I need to talk to the people that are boots on the ground
actually doing the work before I make a decision high up
in my role.
Part of what I think is really important to do this
is how do you become a learning organization?
A learning organization allow people closest to the problems
to solve them, right?
What I need is people to solve the problems and I need to be
their conduit to help them get from point A to point B
when they run into barriers.
I shouldn't come down from my seat to try to come down
and engage, right?
And I don't like come down in a sense of a hierarchy.
But the reality is I sit as a senior administration.
The last thing I need to do is show up in spaces
and tell people what to do.
I need to show up in spaces and ask questions
and give space and time for people to articulate
what their needs are and then work with them
to co-create solutions
and I think sometimes we're not doing those kind of things.
The only way that you can truly do UDL is to engage
other folks to understand
how they want to express themselves
and all of those kind of things
and I just think sometimes we fail to do those things
and so how do we actually go out, engage the people,
engage the community, ask them what their needs are,
and then co-create solutions with them?
I think that's one of the biggest ways in which
we can do that.
It also gives us the ability, right,
that has power to make decisions or have power
over resources to hear that information in a different vein.
UDL all over again, right?
So UDL is through and through everything,
it's not me just coming in and doing UDL.
When I hear from other people,
I'm allowing UDL to actually be modeled
and that's what I think is also important
is for us to model.
You keep saying we're modeling UDL.
How do we actually model it and practice?
You go to people and ask them what they need
before you co-create
'cause that gives you ability
to know that there's a problem.
But you hear that problem from a very different way
'cause that same problem exists in all of the colleges,
but it affects all of those colleges very differently.
And not hearing all those different viewpoints
make me put in a solution
that's probably not gonna be fruitful for enough people.
And I think how do we model UDL just in our approach
and how we lead?
-: Yeah, I hear the words co-creation
and I hear the words engagement
and too often we miss that part of UDL.
That UDL is a process of co-creation and that's really
what leads to true engagement, right?
Is when people feel like their needs and their preferences
have been considered when we design a learning environment.
We haven't designed a learning environment for them,
we've designed a learning environment with them, right,
and that's a different conversation.
So thank you so much for bringing those points up.
So I always love to leave the listener on a hopeful tone.
And so I want to ask you, if you were to look forward
five years from now, what is your vision?
What would you like to see happen in terms of
what do we wanna be in five years?
What's like the, this is what we should all work for
when it comes to making these connections for people
and all the issues that we've talked about?
DEI, accessibility in UDL.
-: I think it's a couple different points that I would make.
It won't happen in five years,
but we philosophically have to be thinking from a landscape
of I'm trying to work myself out of a job.
If I'm still working 20 years from now doing DEI work,
which we probably will 'cause that's just the landscape,
that means things are not improving in the way
that they should,
and so if you're doing diversity, equity, inclusion work,
access work, any of those things,
we should be working to work ourselves out of a job.
That's what I would say is number one,
from just a philosophical standpoint.
What that means is it gets me out of a mindset of thinking
I'm the savior and I think sometimes when we're working
with minoritized groups,
we're going into this space as a savior
and that's not healthy to that community at all.
I think the second point that I would make
is that it's not about us personally.
I don't do this work for Zebediah.
I do this work for others and it's so many times
when we're in this spaces
and we're working with minoritized identities
or marginalized individuals,
we take things personal or we make it all about ourselves.
It's not about me
and I need to keep that at the forefront of my brain.
And then just from a positive note,
I know everybody is not as excited about this group as I am.
I'm super excited about Gen Z, right.
Gen Z just takes things to a whole nother level.
I thought we was big and bad coming up.
We have nothing on Gen Z
and as long as we can keep Gen Z having the same energy
that they have around diversity, equity, inclusion,
one of the things is they don't accept diversity, equity,
inclusion, they expect it.
The more we can rely on our younger generation to help us
engage in ways that we didn't think about before,
I think we're gonna be more fruitful.
When you think about being hopeful,
I think about the younger generation,
and I know sometimes the younger generation actually agitate
people that are older than them.
They should because sometimes we did things to go along
to fit in, and that's not this group
that's coming behind us and I'm truly appreciative of that.
And so the more that we can listen
to the younger generation,
the more we can give them constructive,
appropriate guidance, I think that's important.
Sometimes in our roles, we give bad guidance
and shut down our younger generations
just because we couldn't do it or we didn't see
a path forward that way when we were coming along.
I just think this Gen Z generation makes me
really, really hopeful.
And the more people we can teach about UDL
makes me really hopeful.
The more we can talk about UDL outside of the classroom
makes me hopeful as well.
I'm not saying we should take it out of the classroom.
UDL just could be applied in other spaces,
not just the classroom
and I think the more we can expand people minds about UDL
outside of the classroom,
the better it would be for all parties involved.
-: I completely agree, right.
We want a system that goes beyond the classroom
because our library needs to be accessible.
Our labs need to be accessible in welcoming spaces.
Our community groups that are associated
with our institutions, higher learning,
whether they be clubs or community outreach,
all of those things need to be accessible.
They need to be spaces where people belong
and I do share your enthusiasm about Gen Z as well,
and I liken it to, in my own experience,
growing up with assistive technology,
Previous generations didn't have that, right?
That's a privilege that I have.
That I get to live in a world where assistive technology is,
you can find it, you know, you don't have to go too far
to find it nowadays.
So again, I'm hopeful, like you said,
this generation expects that we create a better world
for them, so I think that's a hopeful message
to leave the conversation on.
But you know, you mentioned Gen Z, they agitate
and one of the ways that they agitate
is through social media.
So if people wanted to stay in touch with you
because they love what they heard on this podcast,
how do they connect with you,
'cause I know it's all about connection with Gen Z.
-: Yeah, the best way would probably be on LinkedIn,
just under Zebadiah Hall.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
If you shoot me a message, I'll make sure that I respond
and get back to you.
But that's probably the best way to get in contact with me.
I also have an Instagram under Zebadiah Hall as well.
So whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn,
we can connect those ways.
-: And I'm sure in Instagram,
you do have great descriptions of your significant other,
right, so that you can keep the harmony going, I'm sure.
-: Have to keep the harmony going.
I actually don't post to Facebook or Instagram
as much anymore as I used to, but I'm still connected
that way, but totally on LinkedIn.
-: Great, so there you have it.
That's the way to continue these conversations with Zebadiah
and thank you so much Zebadiah,
not only for the work that you do,
but for sharing your insights with our audience
on this podcast, we really, really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
-: No problem and thank you for all that you all are doing.
We have podcasts about all kind of things.
The more we can have podcasts about how do we change culture
and shift paradigms, I really, really appreciate the work
that you all are doing as well.
-: Thanks for tuning in to this episode
of the "Accessible Learning Experience",
brought to you by the National Center
on Accessible Educational Materials at Cast.
You can find us on the web at aem.cast.org.
There you'll find show notes we link to all of the resources
mentioned on each episode.
Thanks again for listening and remember,
accessibility is everyone's responsibility.
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The contents of this podcast were developed
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However, those contents do not necessarily represent
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